Honorablecotton

What guns do you want to see?

Recommended Posts

I'd like to see the Heckler & Koch MP5SD and/or the MP7A1 (including the purpose made MP7 multi-purpose ambidextrous thigh holster), and also the Knight's Armament Company SR-25, which is a DMR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Xilvius said:

I'd like to see a variety of non-lethal options for police. As in tasers and beanbag shotguns.

They confirmed that there will be a variety of non-lethal weapons

Edited by YouKnowBro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a former officer in the exact same area the game covers most departments were converging on some model of Glock.  I carried a Glock 23 on duty (since I was tasked with a lot of forensics) and a Taurus 85 CIA of duty.  On 9/11 a lot of officers were forced to bring in their personal rifles that met department needs.  I actually ended up with a MAS 49/56 for a few months until they replaced them with M16A1 from federal stocks and eventually M4s.  We never used it but the MAS 49/56 had a grenade launcher which could be used to breach doors.  My shotgun was an older Model 5.

 

In the game though I think weapon escalation and turning the streets into free fire zones is bad medicine.  Imagine the model

 

Rank                                                                  Weapon Assigned

Patrol Officer Recruit (P1)                              Smith and Wesson Model 10  

                                                                               6-rd .38 special slow reload lower lethality (speed loader option for regular reload)

 

Patrol Officer (P2)                                           Smith and Wesson Model 19  

                                                                                 6-rd .357 magnum slow reload higher lethality (speed loader option for regular reload)

 

Senior Patrol Officer (P3)                                Smith and Wesson Model 39  

                                                                                  8-rd 9x19mm fast reload standard lethality

 

Corporal (P4)                                                      Smith and Wesson Model 59  

                                                                                  15-rd 9x19mm fast reload standard lethality

 

At sergeant you can stay with patrol, go to detective, go to SWAT, etc. and get better goodies.  Detectives and SWAT need to have patrol division staffed so you do not want 100 swathes and one guy on the street.

 

Justification: 

The movement to high firepower weapons in the hands of police is not new.  In the 1930s criminals gained access to automatic weapons from National Guard Armories and began using them in crimes.  Police forces began in turn to unarm.  The process though was gradual, and often had officers with higher rank getting more capable weapons as a way to ensure their competent use.  The PA State Troopers is a great example.

 

In the 1930s in response to body armor being used by bad guys, senior patrol troopers were given the option of buying their own .357 Magnum revolvers, which were pioneered for this use.  Junior officers carried a .38 revolver and were only allowed to carry two rounds loads for safe.  They would be instructed to load the rest by the senior officer  (it was a different era, remember, officers could be given a shoot to kill order then, something illegal today when legal theory revolves around stopping shots.) 

The most famous lawmen who fought battle with big criminals often carried very modest  weapons, relying on skill rather than firepower.  Frank Hamer, facing may Tommy Gun and BAR wielding crooks famously used a Remington Model 8 rifle with an extended magazine to kill these outlaws.  When preparing to go up against Bonny and Clyde, Hamer noticed that one of the deputies, Prentiss Oakley, was planning on carrying a shotgun into battle.  Hamer showed his own Model 8 in 3 5 Remington and said - go find one of these.  Oakley had no other rifle, and had used his friend model 8 (without extended magazine) for hunting, so he borrowed it for the fight.  Clyde Borrow was thus killed either by Oakley or Hamer, as it was a 35 Remington shot that was fatal for him.

 

 

 

 

 

FBI-Marc-davis.jpg

The Model 8 Rifle was popular among law enforcement when chambered for the .35 Remington Cartridge because of its excellent accuracy (less chance of hitting civilians), its massive stopping power (the rifle was routinely used in the 1930s against elk, moose, and even bear), and because a shooter could make followup shots without lifting their head from its cheek weld.  The Model 8 was especially prized for its ability to  crack engine blocks.  Law enforcement users could get many upgrades for this rifle, including peep sights, stripper clips for fast reload, and even extended magazines that could be removed like ones used on the military BAR.  Many experienced police considered this rifle better for ordinary use than more military weapons that became available later because it was less conspicuous to carry and was cheaper (by about $300 bucks) than the Thompson and nearly $1000 than the BAR / Colt Monitor.

 

Frank Hamer used the Model 8 over the Thompson because he felt his skill shooting was his primary strength.  Although generally not a good idea, Hamer often shot to wound, doing so to protect a black suspect from being lynched on one occasion.  He considered pistols for emergency, the model 8 as for when he got serious. 

 

M&Prevolver.jpg

The Smith  and Wesson Military and Police (Model 10) as for many years the standard pistol used by police in the United States.  Designed around the .38 Special round, the Model 10 was rugged (important for police before the age of radio dispatch) easy to use, very safe, and could be topped off with single rounds of ammunition at any point.  Unlike earlier revolvers it was carried hammer down on a live round, and could be drawn and fired in a single natural action.

 

51xRQIeQw-L._UX679_.jpg

The police billy was a length of lacquered Northern White Ash or Maple designs to be wider at the top than the base and to have a hand grip, which officers sometimes covered with sharkskin.  The billy had a number of important uses for a patrol officer.  It  was used to direct civilians by pointing them in the direction they should go in emergencies.  It was used to break windows to effect entry into houses and cars, and it was used for less-than-lethal-fighting.  While an amateur could "crack heads" police over the decades developed a fighting  system designed to force compliance with orders without harming the citizen the consisted of strikes on large muscles, pinions of the arm or legs, moves to disarm an opponent of knives, and to trip fleeing subjects.  One popular use is the door block, preventing a door from being closed in the face of an officer.

 

400px-S&W-Model-27-2.jpg

On the morning of June 17, 1933 in Kansas City three gangsters tried to break their friend, Frank Nash, out of federal custody. The result was the Kansas City  massacre, which would  shock Federal law enforcement and be one of the five great "learning moments" in Federal experience.  The Model 27, originally called the Registered Magnum (which was custom made and only offered to select buyers) was one of the results.  The 357 Magnum round was the result of work by Elmer Keith, who had wanted a "fast and heavy" round that would give the stopping power of the 45 with the accuracy of the 30 Mauser.  Owing to the death of three of their officers in the Massacre, Kansas City was the first city to issue the Model 27 / Registered Magnum to all of its officers.  

The .357 was disliked by the criminal community because of its reputation of being a "killing round" compared to the so called "humane" .38 special.  In the late 1930s when automobiles began sporting plexiglass windows, state patrols noted that their 38 special handgun often failed to penetrate car windows.  This resulted in most State Police adopting this pistol, and many would not move to modern autoloaders until the 1990s.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1200px-Savage_1907_(6825677636).jpg

The Savage 1907 chambered for .32 ACP or .380 ACP was a little known firearm used by police detectives from 1910 to 1950.  Life the M1911 it is a semi-automatic, single action, so it cannot be safely carried in condition one (although some experienced shooters will indeed carry it this way in cocked and locked mode, with leather from the holster between the hammer and firing pin, accidental discharge during drawing is always an issue when this is done).  The main reason detectives liked this pistol was that it was 1) equipped with a 9 or 10 round magazine, 2) was low penetration, meaning errant shots were less likely to endanger civilians, 3) was thinner than the Model 36 Smith allowing it to be carried concealed without having to wear a heavy jacket, and 4) it was a natural pointer, making it easy to snap shoot in emergencies and 5) it was very reliable, being the runner up to the 1911 during the 1907 military pistol trials.

No police department officially adopted the Savage, it  was usually purchased and owned privately.  

 

15313024_2.jpg?v=8CFBD9FC0C64BC0

The Savage Model 99 was on of those advance weapons (similar to the Remington Model 8) which law enforcement, especially in rural areas, took to from 1900 until the 1950s.  While it was never as popular as the Winchester 1892 or Marlin 1894 lever actions, it offered some important advantages.  First, the Savage was a hammerless design like a bolt action.  This both increased its accuracy and made it safer to shoot.  Next, the Savage had a stronger locking mechanism, allowing in to more easily be chambered for high pressure cartridges.  Police weapons were often chambered for 30 Government (30/40) or in the 1920a the 300 Savage round (which would be modified into the 7.62 NATO round in the 1950s).  The Savage's magazine was also more robust, and as it was a rotary design.  Many shooters felt this made the weapon more predictably balanced. 

The one controversial issue that shooters either call an advantage or a disadvantage is loading.  Unlike the Winchester 1892 which has a loading port, the Savage 99 is loaded though the open action.  It was felt at the time that loading through the action would reduce the introduction of mud or dust into the weapon, a problem for any lever action.  Port loading though allows the weapon to be topped off easier than action loading since the weapon need not be taken from the shoulder.  

Despite this the 99 was prized by prison guards and rural law officers who might have to take accurate shots at range but wanted to be able to use the rapid fire ability of a lever gun in an emergency.

 

93f81f8276851cb8982c3e9f5a8044fd.jpg

In the 1990s police departments began facing gangs equipped with AK47 derived firearms, body armor, and even weapons modified to fire fully automatic by using bump stocks.  Many departments began to look the other way when officers began to equip and carry AR15s.  By the end of the decade departments themselves were buying and placing in patrol cars military grade rifles.

In an unusual political move, many gangs began to apply political pressure against police equipping themselves with military weapons, and found considerable support in both the right and left wing political movements.  This was combined with the concept of "community policing" where the police themselves were increasingly uncomfortable appearing to be heavily militarized among people they were dedicated to serving.  This caused many jurisdictions to pause in there efforts to increase police firepower.

The turn of the century saw not only an increase in terrorism and the revival of heavily armed militias, but also saw the massive increase in active shooter events where police were forced to engage belligerent mass murderers as they used high powered weaponry in the middle of crowded schools, churches, mosques, and airports.  The issue here was that police pistols were not accurate enough to selectively target a suspect in a crowded space past a few meters.  

The Remington 7615P was seen as on solution.  Based on the Remington 7600 pump action rifle (a popular civilian hunting weapon) the 7615P is equipped with an adaptor to allow it to use the standard NATO STANAG magazine of the M16.  On its own, the 7615 looks very much like a pump shotgun shotgun, common and accepted by civilian authorized for more than 50 years.  In practice the weapon carries a five round magazine, solving the main complaints that advocates for gangs have made concerning police overkill.  In an emergency the officer can replace the small magazine with a complete M16 magazine, even sharing them with members of SWAT.

1_1864_remington_7615,__.223_remington.j

Studies show that a gang member with an AK47 fires an average of 71 shots before hitting their intended target with a high chance of hitting unintended targets.  Police with a shoulder weapon at average ranges do much better,  between 8 and 12 shots for each hit with a much lower chance of hitting unintended targets.  Skills police officers, even with a slower firing rifle like the 7615, still outperform AK armed gang members considerable.  Ad the issue of limited ammunition for suppressing or covering fire is solved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now